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Opened 5 years ago

Last modified 4 years ago

#10654 closed task (blessed)

Remove Classic and Kubrick Themes — at Version 23

Reported by: technosailor Owned by:
Milestone: 3.0 Priority: normal
Severity: normal Version: 2.9
Component: Themes Keywords:
Focuses: Cc:

Description (last modified by nacin)

Remove the classic and kubrick themes from core. Add them to the .org directory.

Only copy the most recent theme (i.e. twentyten) during automatic upgrades. Rely on the plugin and theme upgraders where possible and stop copying wp-content during automatic upgrades.

SVN users will lose default and classic on svn up. Ensure that there is code in the upgrader to switch to twentyten being the new active theme if necessary.

Change History (25)

comment:1 markjaquith5 years ago

Some people still use it. Maybe not nakedly, but with CSS-only "child" themes. And it doesn't really cost us much. Others may disagree, so I'll leave it open for feedback.

comment:2 kpdesign5 years ago

  • Keywords remove-classic-theme added

Every time I do a new install or upgrade an existing install, I delete this theme and the Hello Dolly plugin immediately.

I personally would like to see it removed. It could still be available from the Extend section if someone wanted to download it, but I don't think it needs to be distributed with the core package.

comment:3 follow-up: technosailor5 years ago

Reality is, WP provides semantic classnames throughout now so the need for Classic for the sake of child themes is greatly reduced.

In addition, removing it from core does not remove it from installs in the wild unless someone overtly deletes it from their own file tree.

The biggest argument, though, is that it somehow inherently notes an endorsement of "this is how themes are meant to be" by inclusion. And I think we all agree this is NOT how themes are meant to be in 2009...

comment:4 technosailor5 years ago

  • Cc technosailor added

comment:5 scribu5 years ago

  • Milestone changed from Unassigned to 2.9

Also in favor of removing it from Core. It just doesn't belong there anymore.

If people still want to use it, I'm sure there will be someone willing to maintain it on Extend.

comment:6 scribu5 years ago

  • Cc scribu@… added

comment:7 in reply to: ↑ 3 Viper007Bond5 years ago

Replying to technosailor:

The biggest argument, though, is that it somehow inherently notes an endorsement of "this is how themes are meant to be" by inclusion. And I think we all agree this is NOT how themes are meant to be in 2009...

Exactly, and you can one-click install themes from the admin area.

comment:8 filosofo5 years ago

The problem is that Default is too filled with cruft to be suitable as a basis for creating one's own theme, and there's no way to tell from browsing which among those in the repository are good examples (many if not most are problematic).

Classic shows how to do the basics, and it's good to have a basic example. If you think its example is bad, patch it or suggest a replacement. But please don't argue that you're concerned about having a bad example and then leave Default as the only one or suggest sending people out to the repository.

Personally, I'd take the defunct Sandbox, strip out the dated widgets and semantics functions and replace them with up-to-date equivalents, and replace Classic with it. Maybe someone can suggest a current, better example.

comment:9 janeforshort5 years ago

  • Milestone changed from 2.9 to Future Release

I want to see the default themes changed, but I think that's being discussed for 3.0 at earliest rather than 2.9.

comment:10 hd-J4 years ago

  • Cc hd-J added

With the upcoming release of 2010, I believe this ticket is more valid than ever. I don't know if the question was raised in another ticket, but what is the plan for Kubrick, should it be removed as well?

comment:11 follow-up: michaelh4 years ago

-1 to removing the 'default' theme, at least for now. A large number of examples in Codex and the Forums reference that theme.

comment:12 Viper007Bond4 years ago

I don't see a reason to remove Kubrick (yet), but the Classic theme is super archaic.

comment:13 in reply to: ↑ 11 ; follow-up: technosailor4 years ago

Replying to michaelh:

-1 to removing the 'default' theme, at least for now. A large number of examples in Codex and the Forums reference that theme.

So, edit the Codex!

comment:14 follow-up: filosofo4 years ago

I'm willing to bet that the styling and markup of the "classic" theme is a lot easier for beginners to understand and customize than "default."

Not to mention there are some questionable choices of styling and markup in default that make it a poor example to learn from.

comment:15 in reply to: ↑ 14 ; follow-up: hd-J4 years ago

Replying to filosofo:

I'm willing to bet that the styling and markup of the "classic" theme is a lot easier for beginners to understand and customize than "default."

Alright, it may be easier to understand, but isn't it why we decided to go for a new 2010 theme? Create a modern and easy to understand theme that shows to the beginners all what you can do with WordPress?
Imo "classic" does not give a good image of WordPress to beginners. 2010 should be the theme you learn from, not "classic".

comment:16 in reply to: ↑ 15 ; follow-up: filosofo4 years ago

Replying to hd-J:

Replying to filosofo:

I'm willing to bet that the styling and markup of the "classic" theme is a lot easier for beginners to understand and customize than "default."

Alright, it may be easier to understand, but isn't it why we decided to go for a new 2010 theme? Create a modern and easy to understand theme that shows to the beginners all what you can do with WordPress?

2010 is not a good example for beginners. It's obvious if you just compare loop.php in 2010 to index.php in Classic.

What is the main concern here? The extra filesize? It's insignificant. That WP will look bad? The name "Classic" makes it obvious that the look isn't meant to be cutting-edge.

comment:17 in reply to: ↑ 16 ; follow-up: hd-J4 years ago

Replying to filosofo:

What is the main concern here? The extra filesize? It's insignificant. That WP will look bad? The name "Classic" makes it obvious that the look isn't meant to be cutting-edge.

I completely agree with you here: filsize should not matter, and people will realize that theme isn't cutting-edge when they are going to activate it.

What bothers me here (but maybe it's just me, I'd be happy to hear others' thoughts about that) is that "Classic" is the base for all beginners who are looking to develop their own theme.
It means that if "Classic" remains, we are likely to see themes based on "Classic" on the Internet. The question is; is that what we want, or do we want the users to look into another default theme such as 2010, and start using some of the WordPress functions developed since the release of "Classic"?

Ultimately, it's about the image of WordPress online: if people see advanced WordPress sites, they will realize the potential behind it. If they keep seeing classic blogs, or if they get the idea that WordPress needs lots of plugins and custimzations to look like a proper site, they won't necessarily consider using WordPress.

But maybe I am completely wrong here... In that case sorry to bring this up.

comment:18 in reply to: ↑ 17 filosofo4 years ago

Replying to hd-J:

What bothers me here (but maybe it's just me, I'd be happy to hear others' thoughts about that) is that "Classic" is the base for all beginners who are looking to develop their own theme.

Beginners have to start somewhere, preferably with something simple. 2010 is not simple.

It means that if "Classic" remains, we are likely to see themes based on "Classic" on the Internet.

Ha. It's been five years since WP 1.5 came out with Kubrick as the bundled theme. If this was going to be a problem, it would have already shown up.

The question is; is that what we want, or do we want the users to look into another default theme such as 2010, and start using some of the WordPress functions developed since the release of "Classic"?

A better question is, "does Classic do something wrong?" If so, then let's fix it (should be trivial enough since not much is there). There's nothing wrong with not using the latest whiz-bang features; you can look elsewhere (perhaps 2010) to see those.

Ultimately, it's about the image of WordPress online: if people see advanced WordPress sites, they will realize the potential behind it. If they keep seeing classic blogs, or if they get the idea that WordPress needs lots of plugins and custimzations to look like a proper site, they won't necessarily consider using WordPress.

This argument would have had more traction in February 2005 at the advent of Kubrick, when WordPress was just an upstart in the blogging world. Today there are numerous multi-million-dollar businesses built around WordPress theming. It's less a question of "can it be done" than "how can it be done."

But maybe I am completely wrong here... In that case sorry to bring this up.

My concern is mainly that beginners will lose a ready example of a basic theme. Kubrick and much of the free theme repository make bad educational examples. Others, like 2010, are too complicated for beginners. And how do beginners even know where to look?

comment:19 in reply to: ↑ 13 ; follow-up: michaelh4 years ago

Replying to technosailor:

Replying to michaelh:

-1 to removing the 'default' theme, at least for now. A large number of examples in Codex and the Forums reference that theme.

So, edit the Codex!

Good idea! Note, I'm not arguing to "never" delete the default theme, but suggesting it be deferred until the 2010 theme gets some traction in blogs and the forum, and after your excellent suggestion of updating Codex gets implemented.

comment:20 in reply to: ↑ 19 ; follow-up: technosailor4 years ago

Replying to michaelh:

Good idea! Note, I'm not arguing to "never" delete the default theme, but suggesting it be deferred until the 2010 theme gets some traction in blogs and the forum, and after your excellent suggestion of updating Codex gets implemented.

Agreed. twentyten in WP 3.0 then I'll be fighting hard to have the classic removed. I don't think it serves anyone to handicap *beginners* with Classic when good docs and education on twentyten will suffice. Leave default in there (rename it though) and then let's offer classic as a separate theme that isn't bundled for those that still need or want it. But as an organization, let's push people in a positive direction.

technosailor4 years ago

Here's an idea. Make Classic a child theme of twentyten to demonstrate how easy it is to do child themes and push people in that direction. Give a man a fish or teach a man to fish.

comment:21 lloydbudd4 years ago

Modifying Classic is a very bad idea. For example on WordPress.com we have 3 themes that are classic templates:
$ ack 'Template: classic'
banana-smoothie/style.css
7:Template: classic
blue-green/style.css
8:Template: classic
silver-black/style.css
8:Template: classic

http://svn.automattic.com/wpcom-themes/

comment:22 in reply to: ↑ 20 mikeschinkel4 years ago

  • Cc mikeschinkel@… added

Replying to technosailor:

Agreed. twentyten in WP 3.0 then I'll be fighting hard to have the classic removed. I don't think it serves anyone to handicap *beginners* with Classic when good docs and education on twentyten will suffice. Leave default in there (rename it though) and then let's offer classic as a separate theme that isn't bundled for those that still need or want it. But as an organization, let's push people in a positive direction.

+1

comment:23 nacin4 years ago

  • Component changed from General to Themes
  • Description modified (diff)
  • Keywords needs-patch added; remove-classic-theme removed
  • Milestone changed from Future Release to 3.0
  • Summary changed from Remove Classic Theme to Remove Classic and Kubrick Themes
  • Type changed from enhancement to task (blessed)
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