Make WordPress Core

Opened 13 years ago

Last modified 8 weeks ago

#11538 reopened enhancement

Unbundle Hello Dolly

Reported by: caesarsgrunt's profile caesarsgrunt Owned by: westi's profile westi
Milestone: Priority: normal
Severity: normal Version: 3.0
Component: Plugins Keywords:
Focuses: Cc:


Now that WordPress is a mature platform, having Hello Dolly as a default plugin is really a bit of an embarrassment.

With the impending focus on canonical plugins, this strikes me as a good opportunity to remove Hello Dolly and replace it with a plugin which is actually useful.

Hello Dolly could be kept in the repo for the sake of nostalgia if it's wanted by anyone...

Change History (27)

#1 @demetris
13 years ago

  • Cc dkikizas@… added

I don’t find Hello Dolly an embarassment. WP is written by sentient, intelligent human beings who like things like, for example, music, and, in my eyes at least, Hello Dolly reflects exactly that.

What I would like to see is Hello Dolly extended and improved. Here are some thoughts:

Option to add more text/lyrics, either in a text area or by pointing to a text file.

Option to display on the frontend, in a widget or somewhere else; for example, as an alternative and alternating site tagline.

An Options page to do all the above, and maybe more, in an easy way.

A Hello Dolly that did things like the above, using the latest APIs and with everything documented, would also be a good candidate for a canonical/reference plugin, as string manipulation and text insertion are two of the most common things people do to extend/customize WP.

#2 @matt
13 years ago

Demetris, I like that suggestion a lot. It has always been intended as a "teaching" plugin to show how easy it is to write a plugin for WP.

#3 @ramiy
13 years ago

i agree with caesarsgrunt. after every wp update i delete this plugin. its not usuful for must bloggers.

#4 @brantgurga
13 years ago

I support both thoughts I'm seeing. There is certainly a place for solid, clear, easily understood examples of plugins that are in Wordpress by default to demonstrate how a plugin is written and provide a basis for creating new plugins.
I know I am in the same boat as ramiy though. I delete the Hello Dolly plugin after every installation. And code that is there, even if it's not an activated plugin, is a potential target for finding and exploiting vulnerabilities.
To best address this, we need a measure of how often Hello Dolly and, to be fair, the Akismet plugin is actually activated.

#5 @strider72
13 years ago

+1 demetris -- The code in Hello Dolly should be updated to reflect current "best practice", otherwise it's actually somewhat of a detriment IMO.

ramiy -- I always use a custom wp-content folder, which has the advantage that the default plugins don't reflect what I see in the Admin. ;-) (By keeping my wp-content and wp-config.php outside the WordPress folder, updates are easier because I can just kill the whole wp folder and replace it wholesale.)

#6 @novasource
13 years ago

  • Cc novasource added

Hello Dolly is not artistic, it's just dumb. Please delete it.

As for examples of plugins, that's what documentation is for. Certainly the vast majority of WordPress users are just that--users.

It may be a copyright violation. This is not fair use, so I'd love to see a copy of the license from the copyright holders.

#7 @novasource
13 years ago

(I wish I could edit my own comments in Trac!) In the prior comment, I meant to say that since the vast majority of WordPress users are just users, not module developers, this module is almost always useless cruft.

#8 @matt
13 years ago

  • Resolution set to wontfix
  • Status changed from new to closed

Going to close because of rude comments. Please don't open a new ticket on this issue without discussion first at a meetup.

#9 @janeforshort
13 years ago

People seem really focused on Hello Dolly as an example plugin for plugin developers. I know that's a discussion worth having (code standards, best examples, etc), but it's not the reason I think it should stay bundled. We have an example post, example page, and example comment for USERS to see where things fit into their admin tool. If Hello Dolly (example plugin) was unbundled (eventually Akismet will be unbundled and become a core plugin), then new users would not see an example on the plugin management screen. I wouldn't want to put a super-functional plugin in that place, because the whole point of example content is give them something to experiment with. If someone wants to keep Hello Dolly, more power to them, but to me the value of it is that is a very simple way for a new user to see how activating a plugin can affect their site and that way it appears in the plugin management screen.

#10 @strider72
13 years ago

Rude comments aside, novasource has made an excellent point: The lyrics to the song "Hello Dolly" are almost certainly still under copyright, which would make it illegal for to include it without permission.

An example plugin is a great idea, but this one is problematic in the particulars.

Who knows -- perhaps the copyright holder would give permission for a not-profit organization making open-source software. Then again, maybe not.

#11 @sc0ttkclark
13 years ago

Wait a tick.. I thought WP was geared towards users.. why is there a developer's plugin bundled automatically? Can't this plugin just be referenced in the Codex where people normally go when they want to start learning how to make a plugin? I'm just trying to make sense of this here.

#12 @sc0ttkclark
13 years ago

@janeforshort - I see your point, but if no plugins are listed - then there should be an introduction text put in it's place explaining what plugins are. Posts / Pages are included by default for good reason, I agree with that. I don't agree with Hello Dolly itself being included for the reason of seeing something listed there, there's an "Add New" link there for a reason. There could easily be a link to "Add Hello Dolly" which would open up a thickbox with the Hello Dolly info (like the Add New plugins page has) so the user could install.

There really seems like a bigger discussion needs to be had, beyond what has already gone on (as big and heated as it is).

#13 @jane
13 years ago

@sc0ttkclark: I'm saying that the way we treat examples in the admin should be consistent. I'm up for discussion about example content/new user guided tour pros and cons. I think our example content has problems in general, witness the number of results you get if you search for "This is an example of a WordPress page" or "Hi, this is a comment" on Google. However, I don't think unbundling Hello Dolly has much to do with that. As long as we have "Hi, this is a comment," I think Hello Dolly is a good little example plugin. Users can turn it on, see that it does something, turn it off, see that it doesn't do it anymore. Plugin functionality exemplified.

@ramiy: You probably delete the example post, page and comment as well, so what's the big deal?

#14 @sc0ttkclark
13 years ago

@jane - I definetely understand, however, why can't this data be optional? It could be enabled by default in installation, but should have a disable option in which could attempt to delete Hello Dolly, and not insert the sample data. Thoughts? I suppose that woul be another ticket ;)

#15 @nacin
13 years ago

  • Milestone 3.0 deleted

#16 @novasource
13 years ago

  • Resolution wontfix deleted
  • Status changed from closed to reopened
  • Version changed from 3.0 to 3.1

Come on, this plugin is still in 3.0? It's not funny, it's not inspirational, it's just stupid. And it violates copyright. Please unbundle this pointless module from core.

#17 @mrmist
13 years ago

  • Version changed from 3.1 to 3.0

#18 @nacin
13 years ago

  • Resolution set to wontfix
  • Status changed from reopened to closed

#19 @hakre
12 years ago

Related: #15769

#20 @lukecavanagh
6 years ago

The fact that new end-users still have to research and find out what the Hello Dolly plugin actually is, and why it is included in WP core.

#21 @bamadesigner
5 years ago

Technological and teaching arguments aside, can we look at this plugin's existence from a moral standpoint?

As a fan of musical theatre, and one who loves to enjoy singing "Put On Your Sunday Clothes", it pains me to point out that this movie, as a whole, is horribly sexist.

There's a reason ticket 43555 exists. And that users are seeing offensive lyrics in their admin, e.g.

If we don't want to remove it, for the sake of teaching, can we at least replace it with something that doesn't represent a movie that degrades women as "dainty" and "fragile", re: the musical number "It Takes A Woman":

#22 @swissspidy
4 years ago

#47556 was marked as a duplicate.

#23 @audrasjb
8 weeks ago

#58108 was marked as a duplicate.

#24 @alexstine
8 weeks ago

I never really thought about it until I saw a related ticket come through. I think this plugin has served its purpose over the years and can now be phased out. Learning to code a plugin could be handled under the Learn Team or some other documentation resource.

A few negative opinions and the ticket gets closed. Not saying anyone was right to say what was said but I do think this plugin has long outlasted its usefulness in the community.

#25 @savethefrogs
8 weeks ago

It is insane that this thread is 13 years old and the plugin continues to be forced on hundreds of millions of users. It is not a teaching plugin, and even if it were, it belongs elsewhere, and/or the name needs to be changed to reflects it being a teaching plugin. Please respect users' time. Don't force plugins on users.

#26 @novasource
8 weeks ago

Per comment 8 above (#comment:8), @matt declared we're stuck with this plugin because people said mean things on this issue.

Blatant copyright violation, uselessness, or simply being an embarrassment don't matter. It's pwning meanies that matters.

#27 @savethefrogs
8 weeks ago

  • Resolution wontfix deleted
  • Status changed from closed to reopened

Who makes the decisions on these things? Is there a webpage that describes how WordPress core decisions are made? Do the comments of a disgruntled founder 13 years ago override common sense and the preferences of the masses? I hereby submit a request that an official vote take place on the fate of forcing Hello Dolly onto new WordPress installs.

It should also be noted that forcing Akismet on hundreds of millions of sites is unethical given that the founder's company makes money off of it.

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