Better page ordering UI

[ramiy]

Unkile posts, in pages we can order and re-order the pages (using "menu_order" field in "wp_posts" table).

But since the new "Custom Menu" feature was introduced, do we realy need the page ordering?

We can create new menus, add as many pages as we like and re-order them as we like (this is the purpose of menues).

If we can do this using menus, then we can delete the ordering feature from the page editing screen.

[scribu]

It's way too early to be thinking about this. There are a many many themes that don't support menus yet.

[knutsp]

Too early to remove this column from the database. But since WorPress knows if the active theme supports menus, and if there is at least one menu created, the UI field for the menu order of a page may be removed in the case. A theme or a plugin may also bring the UI back, even if the theme supports menus, but no menues are yet created.

A visible "menu order" for pages may be misleading and confusing for new users of WordPress, using Twenty Ten or another menu aware theme, not knowing the history of WordPress.

This dependant UI removal may be a way to prepare for a future removal of the menu_order column. WordPress 3.0 made this field practically obsolete. Some day it should be marked as such and then removed.

[jameslaws]

Just wanted to throw my two cents in, I don't think this should ever be removed. There are way to many uses for the menu_order for automated listing where you don't want to have to create menus each time. Sometimes listing the pages is the best method but menu order is still the sorting method.

Just my opinion.

[scribu]

Although the menu_order field probably isn't going away, I agree that the curret UI should be removed.

Besides being redundant now, it was never very user friendly in the first place.

[scribu]

Gonna repurpose this ticket.

[jameslaws]

Replying to scribu:

I completely agree with you. I was more referring to the idea of removing the column from the db than anything else. I would fight to make sure that doesn't happen. :) Extremely useful.

[mikeschinkel]

Replying to jameslaws:

Replying to scribu:

I was more referring to the idea of removing the column from the db than anything else. I would fight to make sure that doesn't happen. :) Extremely useful.

+1 to that!

[scribu]

Hey, since we're hiding the UI for the Link Manager and for several superfluous options, how about this?

[DrewAPicture]

-1 for this.

To a certain extent, yes, menus have made it much easier to reorder content, but only if you plan on using menus to list content. And what about other custom post types that support page-attributes?

I'm fully aware we're not talking about removing the field, just the UI, but short of having to install a plugin to manually reorder, you're basically then stuck with whatever the default ordering is when invoking menu_order (unless I'm missing something). That's lame.

By all means, remove the bits from the meta box on the edit screen and quick edit, but either replace the ui/ux in the list tables (drag n drop?) or leave it alone.

[scribu]

To a certain extent, yes, menus have made it much easier to reorder content, but only if you plan on using menus to list content.

Are you saying people use menu_order to display a full list of pages, with content and all?

And what about other custom post types that support page-attributes?

What about them? The UI is the same, still sucky.

By all means, remove the bits from the meta box on the edit screen and quick edit, but either replace the ui/ux in the list tables (drag n drop?) or leave it alone.

I agree with that. It's easy to fall into the trap of removing features in the name of simplicity, without providing alternatives. A current example from the Linux world: ​http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/08/ubuntu-12-10-will-ship-with-older-version-of-nautilus

[DrewAPicture]

Replying to scribu:

To a certain extent, yes, menus have made it much easier to reorder content, but only if you plan on using menus to list content.

Are you saying people use menu_order to display a full list of pages, with content and all?

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of wp_list_pages(). Sometimes dealing with the extra markup and overhead of a menu is just overkill.

[helenyhou]

There are definitely times that one might use the menu order, especially if it's not a menu that's the output :) Lists of child pages within content, utilizing the menu order to order alternate kinds of content (slides in a slider or some such), etc. There are some plugins that address it nicely in terms of drag-and-drop experience, such as ​http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/simple-page-ordering/, but even then we'd have to think of what the no-JS/accessible alternative interaction would be.

[helen]

Man, 17 month ago me wasn't doing too shabby. Would still love to see what we could do to have a better page ordering interaction - wouldn't be surprised if there are some other duplicate tickets kicking around. Maybe no-JS support is as simple as keeping the field and hiding it when JS is available, and we can look into accessibility links like the menus system has. The checkbox column has some vertical space, could do arrows, maybe.

I guess there are some base issues with drag-and-drop, though, like what you do over a page break in the list table. Anybody want to explore this some more? The plugin is a great start (and not just saying that out of bias).

Also marking as a good-first-bug - not necessarily a walk in the park, but pretty self-contained.

[helen]

Duplicate of #2702.

Annnnd this is a duplicate.