Lucida Grande still used in some places

[demetris]

Lucida Grande was removed from the sans-serif stack in r15858, as a result of the discussion in #8352.

I just noticed that the Help and Screen Options tabs still use it. A look into the admin stylesheets revealed a few more places. Is this for a reason?

See all instances in the attached patch.

[demetris]

Instances where Lucida Grande is still used after it was removed from the sans-serif stack

[nacin]

(In [17327]) Remove Lucida Grande from the remaining font stacks. We should at least be consistent. props demetris, fixes #16298, see #8352.

[JohnONolan]

Hang on. The change to the font-stacks was never supposed to go in! It was tried out, the decision was made for it to be reverted - which no one had time to do - and then I foolishly punted the ticket, not knowing that the change was still in trunk and under the assumption that it *had* been reverted.

I talked to several people about reverting 2 weeks ago and the decision was made that no further changes could be made to font stacks because it was too late. (I felt pretty bad about that)

However, if that's NOT the case and we CAN still make changes to font stacks then please can we revert - not implement this even further?

[saracannon]

I agree with John. If we can make font-stack changes for 3.1, Lucida Grande should be put back in.

The whole reason for its removal was about incompatibility issues in Ubuntu. I thought azaozz suggested a decent solution to the problem in his comment here: ​http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/8352#comment:33. I would love to explore that more.

I really hope that we don't end up throwing out Lucida in this release because after the patch was committed, we all agreed that it looked really bad and needed to be reverted. And I REALLY hope it is not getting thrown out just because it is the "easiest" solution to the problem. (design should not be sacrificed this way) I'm pretty sure that everyone on a Mac in the UI group would love to work on a solution that does not involve the removal of Lucida for the next release.

If we can still make font changes for this release: please, for the love of design, REVERT.

[isaackeyet]

However, if that's NOT the case and we CAN still make changes to font stacks then please can we revert - not implement this even further?

If not-reverting means Verdana, then I think this should be considered a priority. If nothing else for maintaining a unified typographical experience ;)

[westi]

I too thought we were going back on this change - does someone want to write a patch to revert back to what we had?

[markmcwilliams]

Replying to westi:

I too thought we were going back on this change - does someone want to write a patch to revert back to what we had?

I'm half-way through one, 2 ticks and I'll upload! :)

[JohnONolan]

Replying to markmcwilliams:

Replying to westi:

I too thought we were going back on this change - does someone want to write a patch to revert back to what we had?

I'm half-way through one, 2 ticks and I'll upload! :)

No need, we're going to try a standard revert I think

[markmcwilliams]

Replying to JohnONolan:

Replying to markmcwilliams:

Replying to westi:

I too thought we were going back on this change - does someone want to write a patch to revert back to what we had?

I'm half-way through one, 2 ticks and I'll upload! :)

No need, we're going to try a standard revert I think

Should work for most, couple will need adjusted manually, like the /wp-admin/includes/media.php file and wp-admin.dev.css I think after your complete rewrite! :)

From what I can tell (if that helps in any way?)

[markmcwilliams]

add Lucida Crande back where it came from

[markmcwilliams]

If you want a patch, then I have attached one anyway, and seem (or at least hope) I have got all the little things back in shape? ;) On another note JohnONolan, there appears to be 2 instances of #utc-time, #local-time in wp-admin.dev.css which I found too. ​L3075 and ​L3918

[JohnONolan]

Bring back Lucida

[JohnONolan]

Replying to markmcwilliams:

If you want a patch, then I have attached one anyway, and seem (or at least hope) I have got all the little things back in shape? ;) On another note JohnONolan, there appears to be 2 instances of #utc-time, #local-time in wp-admin.dev.css which I found too. ​L3075 and ​L3918

New ticket + patch welcome

[JohnONolan]

Mark's patch looks more complete than mine - it solves a few other small spacing issues at the same time. Let's go with that one.

[toscho]

Note that Lucida Grande has no cursive style. The browser may build its own cursive (ugh!), ignore the italic font style or choose the cursive from the next family in the stack. Therefore make sure Lucida is never used in combination with font-style:italic.

[nacin]

This would just be a straight revert back to 3.0 state. Let's just do it already.

[jane]

It's insane that this got put back into 3.1 milestone. We decided we would live with the misses weeks ago when we entered RC.

[helenyhou]

Replying to toscho:

Note that Lucida Grande has no cursive style. The browser may build its own cursive (ugh!), ignore the italic font style or choose the cursive from the next family in the stack. Therefore make sure Lucida is never used in combination with font-style:italic.

Might take a look at ​http://www.brownbatterystudios.com/sixthings/2007/03/14/lucida-hybrid-the-grande-alternative/ (even though it's real late)

[demetris]

@helenyhou

That trick is for Windows, when you want to use Lucida Sans Unicode as a fallback font for Lucida Grande. (Lucida Sans Unicode has neither Bold nor Italic. It only has one variety: Regular.)

It is also a problematic trick: It uses Lucida Sans (the plain one, no the Unicode variety) for bold and italic, but Lucida Sans, unlike Lucida Sans Unicode, has a very narrow character range. So, for anything beyond Basic Latin the result is probably worse than without the trick. If you only care about Basic Latin, though, it is a good trick.

[helenyhou]

@demetrius

You're right - I thought about character set issues right after I wrote that. Was only really thinking about the mention of the lack of italic.

[markmcwilliams]

Replying to nacin:

This would just be a straight revert back to 3.0 state. Let's just do it already.

That'd involve reverting the clean-up JohnONolan did to wp-admin.dev.css though right? :(

[JohnONolan]

Replying to markmcwilliams:

Replying to nacin:

This would just be a straight revert back to 3.0 state. Let's just do it already.

That'd involve reverting the clean-up JohnONolan did to wp-admin.dev.css though right? :(

No he just means that your patch would be a straight revert back to 3.0 state from a typography point-of-view. Which is basically what we want.

[markmcwilliams]

Replying to JohnONolan:

Replying to markmcwilliams:

Replying to nacin:

This would just be a straight revert back to 3.0 state. Let's just do it already.

That'd involve reverting the clean-up JohnONolan did to wp-admin.dev.css though right? :(

No he just means that your patch would be a straight revert back to 3.0 state from a typography point-of-view. Which is basically what we want.

Ah I got'ya now, must of been sleeping when I replied? ;)

[markmcwilliams]

same as 16298.diff just taking into effect r17334

[markmcwilliams]

With [17334] which came up from #16308 I just updated the patch so there's no conflicts and all that, I think the question still is if it's going back in or not? :) But attachment:16298.3.diff​ would be the patch to use!

[automattor]

(In [17347]) Revert [17327] and [15858]. Props markmcwilliams, JohnONolan, et al. see #16298 #8352

[markjaquith]

Punt to 3.2 for consideration then.

[nacin]

Closing, #8352 can handle 3.2.

grep -R Verdana * | grep -v Lucida | grep 'dev\.css' | wc -l
0

[chexee]

What about adding a substitute Linux font at the top of the font stack. Its likely that Windows and Mac systems won't have it installed and will fall back to Lucida.

There's a list of similar fonts here: ​http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/04/02/linux-font-equivalents-to-popular-web-typefaces/ I'm a fan of Loma or Garuda.

I don't think we should sacrifice the design/readability of specific fonts on different platforms for cross-platform consistency. Each platform renders type differently and if that means choosing a different type for each platform to get the most readability out of them, so be it.

[chexee]

Adds Garuda to the top of the font stack for Linux systems. Falls back to Lucida Grande for other systems.